Curse

dansamy · Jun 24, 2005, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnylange

So does that mean you wouldn't having Martha Stewart weld a electric mixer and some outdoor furniture from Kmart?

If this is in reference to my post, I don't think Martha Stewart embodies the spirit of Gaea at all.

DrSLUGFly · Jun 24, 2005, 03:03 AM // 03:03

guild mate of mine thinks that Little Thom is actually Ron Jeremy in disguise

. I have my suspicions too. To Dansamy, I agree. Men typically are power lustful and so lean towards the darker side, not just the dark arts since all arts embody a good and an evil. Perhaps as a good elementalist (particularly earth and water) I can easily imagine a druidic woman. But as an evil elementalist I envision somebody who has been alive far too long (likely man), whose body has been tortured and twisted by the magic they've weilded and the arts they've studied...

Dan Mega · Jun 24, 2005, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Each character will have a body type that fits what they need to do. Warriors have heavy armor and heavy weapons...thus they are going to be big. Big doesn't mean buff though. Some of the warrior and guards don't look buff but they sure do look strong.

As for the women aspect of it, I do have to agree. I understand this is a "fantasy" game, but hell I wouldn't mind seeing a warrior woman that resembles the ball of dough known as Star Jones once in a while (did I just type that?).

DarrenJasper · Jun 24, 2005, 05:08 AM // 05:08

The fact is, if they implemented ugly character models, you and a handful of others would be the only ones who'd pick them. Everyone else would opt for flawless, stunning beauty, for the same reason that every girl you talk to in an AOL chatroom looks "like Britney Spears".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaaaagh

Welcome to America.

There ya go.

Male monks do get a Chow Yun-Fat face, though. I almost picked it.

Luna Thirteen · Jun 24, 2005, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Hey...I see lots of ugly characters...I mean not as ugly as some real life people, but still ugly enough to make me not want to look at them.

Sovetskeey · Jun 24, 2005, 07:36 AM // 07:36

My Elementalist looked like Mel Gibson :-/

DrSLUGFly · Jun 24, 2005, 08:30 AM // 08:30

the problem is, TV ugly is still attractive but in a very borin way. If I could have a woman character who looked like the Bandit Bloodsworns in pre-searing, at least it would be more interesting...

Epinephrine · Jun 24, 2005, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrSLUGFly

guild mate of mine thinks that Little Thom is actually Ron Jeremy in disguise

. I have my suspicions too. To Dansamy, I agree. Men typically are power lustful and so lean towards the darker side, not just the dark arts since all arts embody a good and an evil. Perhaps as a good elementalist (particularly earth and water) I can easily imagine a druidic woman. But as an evil elementalist I envision somebody who has been alive far too long (likely man), whose body has been tortured and twisted by the magic they've weilded and the arts they've studied...

Yeah, way to be sexist. Amazing how it's ok to be sexist as long as you are bashing men.

I'll say this - your sexism may be acceptable to the community, but not to me. I'm a man and in touch with nature - I can tell you why you can use a bit of wood sorrel in a salad and why you shouldn't eat too much of it, what the various ground cover herbs are and what their uses are or identify wood by its grain. I know why ironwood is hard to cut, what parts of a cattail can be eaten and what plants are toxic, even in your garden. Lean toward the darker side my ass - can't wait till people take sexism in this direction seriously.

Talesin Darkbriar · Jun 24, 2005, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrSLUGFly

one thing that has always bothered me about fantasy is superheroes / save the world. Now I know that for an epic feel, save the world is pretty much necessary, but what about the heroes? I tried to make an ugly warrior, but all the faces available and body shapes available are too perfect. The closest I got was TV ugly, which is kind of... well... boring. I'd like to be able to truly uglify a character if I so choose. Why do warriors have to be buff? Why not a fat warrior, or a skinny warrior? Why do all mages have to be skinny? why not fat or buff? And why is every female character either cute or sexy accompanied by a stunning body? I want more variety, and I want options to be something other than a supermodel...

You know not what you ask Gastropod!
Get thee to EQ2 where EVERY character option is a choice between "Hideous" and "wretchedly ugly" (With possible exceptions for the dark & wood elves)
Believe me, better a world of supermodels than one of mongoloidism.

Otherwise, I like your suggestion of body structure types - give us a slider to go from emaciated to obese!

Talesin

ManadartheHealer · Jun 24, 2005, 06:13 PM // 18:13

I would like different, even "ugly" body types.

For my ranger, I wanted the face of a hardened old huntsman with a nice scar going across his face, and a looming, stout body that would put him at like 7 feet tall...I wanted eyes that would seem to pierce right through you. In general, I would have liked a character that scared the shit out of anyone who saw him.

Instead, I got some random grey-haired guy with a headband and gentle eyes. Not very tall, but skinny and feminine features.

Now when wandering through the Maguuma, the trolls and spiders laugh rather than cringe in fear

DrSLUGFly · Jun 24, 2005, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Yeah, way to be sexist. Amazing how it's ok to be sexist as long as you are bashing men.

I'll say this - your sexism may be acceptable to the community, but not to me. I'm a man and in touch with nature - I can tell you why you can use a bit of wood sorrel in a salad and why you shouldn't eat too much of it, what the various ground cover herbs are and what their uses are or identify wood by its grain. I know why ironwood is hard to cut, what parts of a cattail can be eaten and what plants are toxic, even in your garden. Lean toward the darker side my ass - can't wait till people take sexism in this direction seriously.

I'm a man also... I'm also very in touch with my feminine side, as an artist and a writer. I may not know about herbs and plants but I don't follow the typical sports cliches either. If you look around at nature and at the human species you can't deny that males are (speaking of the whole, not every individual) power based. Everything is an exercise in power, even this discussion. Look at any animal, any culture... look at and think about any person really and you'll see a thirsting for power either directly or through a proxy. This isn't limited to men of course, this is every living creature that eats, but it manifests itself most clearly in human men. Think about human history, think about the fact that history is 90% war and oppression for 6000 years... and except for a few nearly forgotten cultures they were all patriarchies.

getting back to the point... I don't want Brad Pitt or the Governator forced upon my charactrs face... perhaps I'd also like Dustin Hoffman (not to say that he's ugly, but he's got a beautiful honker) or just some sort of variation on the all-too-common need to be better than we are.

ManadartheHealer · Jun 24, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrSLUGFly

I'm also very in touch with my feminine side, as an artist and a writer. .

[Sarcasm]Now you're an <expletive(s) omitted for a family-safe environment> queer.[/Sarcasm]

Just curious, but what kind of art and writing activites do you engage in? [/offtopic]

DrSLUGFly · Jun 24, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

I used to paint, expression and surreal, portraits and sometimes (though not so often, still lifes and landscapes. But I found painting took up too much time so I've put aside the brushes and just sketch now, leaving me more time for writing. If you like you can check out some of my stuff here. As for writing, I used to write a lot of poetry, now I focus mostly on short essays and a novel with the occasional excursions into poetry.

dansamy · Jun 24, 2005, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Yeah, way to be sexist. Amazing how it's ok to be sexist as long as you are bashing men.

I'll say this - your sexism may be acceptable to the community, but not to me. I'm a man and in touch with nature - I can tell you why you can use a bit of wood sorrel in a salad and why you shouldn't eat too much of it, what the various ground cover herbs are and what their uses are or identify wood by its grain. I know why ironwood is hard to cut, what parts of a cattail can be eaten and what plants are toxic, even in your garden. Lean toward the darker side my ass - can't wait till people take sexism in this direction seriously.

It has been ingrained from the earliest versions of fairy tales read to me that men are power-hungry and tend to practice dark arts while women usually are more wholly attuned to Gaea. Whether or not its sexist, it's what we read to our little girls as bedtime stories every night. We teach our children this sexism every time we give a little girl a babydoll and a little boy a toy sword or gun. Ever wonder why Mother Earth and Aphrodite and Ceres are feminine...or why Hades and Zeus and Thor and Mars (he's a good example - god of war is masculine) are masculine? These images have been deeply ingrained in us. They're not going to disappear simply because you don't like them. It will take years, and considering the progress we've made with racism, maybe sometime a couple hundred years from now there will be equality between the sexes and the gender-role lines will truly have been erased.

DrSLUGFly · Jun 24, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

The gender role lines can not be erased. You're not just talking about culture here, you're talking about instinct. The strongest animals always lead the pack. With elephants it's age but this one and possibly a few other rare exceptions aside, the hierarchy is based on power. Even with monogamous wolves, after the alphas have eaten it's the strongest or the most intimidating who eats next. You know why the males of most birds and many other animals are so brightly colored? It's because they stand out to predators and therefor show strength... power... there's no way we could know for sure what the real "gender-roles" are with humans since that would involve an experiment which no person in their right mind would condone, but we can look at animals that are similar to us and in almost all of them (I only say almost because always is a bad word

) the hierarchy is based on power and a male sits at the top. By belittling and condemning traditional gender roles, we've solved problems of abuse and oppression but we've also caused problems with confusion and uncertainty. We don't need to erase the gender lines, we need to define them in a way that people will understand and most importantly in such a way that neither side will look down on or think less of the other. Male and female are important, male and female are valuable and needed... but they are not the same, they could never be the same.

dansamy · Jun 24, 2005, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I, for one, don't actually want an erasure of gender-role lines. Quite frankly, I like being female and you couldn't pay me enough to be male. But, there are a good number of people who are insistently marching ahead with their theme of gender equality.

Epinephrine · Jun 24, 2005, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by dansamy

It has been ingrained from the earliest versions of fairy tales read to me that men are power-hungry and tend to practice dark arts while women usually are more wholly attuned to Gaea. Whether or not its sexist, it's what we read to our little girls as bedtime stories every night. We teach our children this sexism every time we give a little girl a babydoll and a little boy a toy sword or gun. Ever wonder why Mother Earth and Aphrodite and Ceres are feminine...or why Hades and Zeus and Thor and Mars (he's a good example - god of war is masculine) are masculine? These images have been deeply ingrained in us. They're not going to disappear simply because you don't like them. It will take years, and considering the progress we've made with racism, maybe sometime a couple hundred years from now there will be equality between the sexes and the gender-role lines will truly have been erased.

There are as many cases of women being evil in mythology as there are of men, and while Gaea is female in some mythologies those in touch with the land are often the men. Think of the Furies, Pandora, Hecate, Hel, Kali, Nephthys, Tiamat etc... Oh, and way to use Ares and conveiniently omit Athena - the two were gods of war, and fought each other.

Males can also be the ones who are "good" and in touch with nature - in the norse myths the male gods are very much those in touch with the land, in babylonian legend the land is nourished and brought to life by the semen of Enki; so men are even portrayed as the givers of life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Slugfly

You know why the males of most birds and many other animals are so brightly colored? It's because they stand out to predators and therefor show strength... power... there's no way we could know for sure what the real "gender-roles" are with humans since that would involve an experiment which no person in their right mind would condone, but we can look at animals that are similar to us and in almost all of them (I only say almost because always is a bad word ) the hierarchy is based on power and a male sits at the top. By belittling and condemning traditional gender roles, we've solved problems of abuse and oppression but we've also caused problems with confusion and uncertainty. We don't need to erase the gender lines, we need to define them in a way that people will understand and most importantly in such a way that neither side will look down on or think less of the other. Male and female are important, male and female are valuable and needed... but they are not the same, they could never be the same.

Oh, I studied evolutionary psychology and biology in university - I know all about that stuff. I know about the correlation between monogamous-polygynous behaviour in primates to sexual dimorphism in species, I know about the game theoretic analyses of animal behavious, from sexual signalling, bluffing and combat and the investment of energy in acts like "stotting", in which the animal demonstrates it's fitness to a predator.

Yes, men and women are different. We have different motivations and differ psychologically and physically. I won't be labelled as evil however, and propagating sexist stereotypes doesn't help anyone. I could just as easily claim that women are power-hungry and calculating, and manipulative. They choose their mates based on power and influence, and men choose more based on looks, which is a sign of both genetic health as well as physical health. In that way, men are motivated by something very natural, while women seek advantage. Either way, ascribing "evil" to a sex and then generalising it is sexism,and it isn't acceptable.

Sorry to drag the conversation to seriousness - I am all for a variety of body types and faces in GW.

Big Fat Duck · Jun 24, 2005, 08:54 PM // 20:54

why do female elementalists have really really long necks.. especially the taller ones

ranger and mesmer are the only classes with normal looking people

dansamy · Jun 24, 2005, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

There are as many cases of women being evil in mythology as there are of men, and while Gaea is female in some mythologies those in touch with the land are often the men. Think of the Furies, Pandora, Hecate, Hel, Kali, Nephthys, Tiamat etc... Oh, and way to use Ares and conveiniently omit Athena - the two were gods of war, and fought each other.

Males can also be the ones who are "good" and in touch with nature - in the norse myths the male gods are very much those in touch with the land, in babylonian legend the land is nourished and brought to life by the semen of Enki; so men are even portrayed as the givers of life.

Oh, I studied evolutionary psychology and biology in university - I know all about that stuff. I know about the correlation between monogamous-polygynous behaviour in primates to sexual dimorphism in species, I know about the game theoretic analyses of animal behavious, from sexual signalling, bluffing and combat and the investment of energy in acts like "stotting", in which the animal demonstrates it's fitness to a predator.

Yes, men and women are different. We have different motivations and differ psychologically and physically. I won't be labelled as evil however, and propagating sexist stereotypes doesn't help anyone. I could just as easily claim that women are power-hungry and calculating, and manipulative. They choose their mates based on power and influence, and men choose more based on looks, which is a sign of both genetic health as well as physical health. In that way, men are motivated by something very natural, while women seek advantage. Either way, ascribing "evil" to a sex and then generalising it is sexism,and it isn't acceptable.

Sorry to drag the conversation to seriousness - I am all for a variety of body types and faces in GW.

The advantage that women seek in mating is also motivated by a natural cause and I resent your implication otherwise. A powerful male affords better protection for her offspring, stonger offspring, and a greater chance of survival for her offspring. A strong male is also an indicator of his good genetics, much the same way that her physical attributes signify hers.

You were the one who generalized our views as sexism. None of us brought up that terminology until you did.

Advocate Of Hell · Jun 24, 2005, 09:11 PM // 21:11

This game, to me revolves arround beauty, keep the charicters beautiful.